Hillary - Choice of Sane Americans
International affairs, Sexual politics, US issues - - Posted on May, 29 at 2:17 pm by Sean
So this has become a group blog (oh Aussie Bob where art thou?), and Tim gave me a log in. Bwa-hahaha! Prepare for some “robust democracy”. Even more fun in that we’re about to argue about politics in a foreign land, where none of the authors have a vote!
Ken L, below, wilfully takes Hillary’s recent comment about late-decided primaries out of context. The comment referred to several factual examples including the assassination of Bobby Kennedy late in one race. Thus Hillary is “unhinged”, “certifiable”, a “nutjob” and, according to many, a racist.
Hey, you guys might not know this, but I did American lit at uni and also helped incrementally destroy a hire car between LA and Miami, so psst, Bobby Kennedy was white.
HRC is the best Democratic candidate still running, if you consider the following traits to be important for a presidential candidate:
1) actual accomplishments in national public life; and
2) winning the presidential election.
Apparently Hillary has some sort of duty to drop out of a close contest early. I would have thought it obvious that Hillary is being monstered by the mega-bucks hard capitalist US media for the same reason they elevated to her husband’s BJ to a crime against humanity, declared Al Gore a certifiable nutjob, Kerry a coward, and most recently simply refused to cover Edwards’ candidacy: because she is in fact an electable progressive, with a concrete record as such. It’s not because she’s a bitch or a ho, but because she’s <i>not</i> a whore. It’s not because she’s a “nutjob”, it’s because she made a real attempt to give Americans public health care. I don’t claim an organised conspiracy that may be uncovered with a smoking gun memo at some point, but after the treatment of Bill Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Edwards and Bitch-Whore-Nutjob-McCommunist-BallBreaker, the US media’s agenda is pretty obvious.
That same media, and the Republicans, aren’t as scared of Obama. The polls, and the results of the popular votes in the Dem primaries, will tell you why. Go look it up. No doubt it will be a fairly honourable Democratic defeat if the delegates give Obama the candidacy. His supporters will feel very good about their demonstrated racial coolness, while McCain finishes the job of destroying the US as a prosperous, 1st world, fully enfranchised democracy. Indeed they’ll feel doubly good; I’ve already seen some of them claiming that if he loses it will have been Hillary’s fault.
It’s easy to be classist about HRC’s non-delegate supporters. They’re blue collar, which means racist. But not, in this particular case, for some reason, sexist. OTOH Obamania reminds me of Christianity. I initially found it attractive coz the dude himself has some good slogans, but the crazy-eyed supporters have turned me off.
After much reading my gut starts to tell me Obama won’t beat McCain. On the one hand, there’s a long road to go and my gut has been wrong before. Indeed, my wife often says of the workings of my gut: “That’s just wrong!” OTOH, said intestinal tract out-performs the McKerras Pendulum as a psephological predicting device in 9 out of 10 federal elections.
Posted in International affairs, Sexual politics, US issues |
May 29th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
There are pro and cons to both Hillary and Obama - both are progressive Democrats with generally similar policies, so in absolute terms it may not matter much win one wins.
Electorally though, they are very different. They do about the same in a match up against McCain by national vote, but by electoral vote Obama will probably only just scrap through while Hillary would easily win, since Obama has too many votes in Red States that won’t flip and not enough in Swing States that could flip. While this makes him a higher risk to get the Presidency though, this makes him a better candidate to win additional Senate seats where the stronger Democratic turnout in Red States could actually flip them from a Conservative Republican to a Conservative Democrat. Hillary helps out more in the House, but even with Obama the Democrats should have a House majority capable of over-riding vetos.
I like Hillary because she is a policy wonk. No doubt about it, Obama has better PR - partly because he is a better campaigner and partly because the media has turned the Republican parody of Hillary into accepted fact (the US Republicans despise women showing ambition or striving for power). If Obama does get in he would do well to ask Hillary for serious policy advice - no point in having good ideas if you don’t have the policy detail to make them work.
I’m happy Hillary is staying in, no reason at all that every state should be contested. Ron Paul is still in the Republican race, and no one is having a fit over that. Hillary has earned the right to stay in the race by the shear number of votes she has collected, even if I don’t think she has a serious chance of being the nominee.
May 29th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Sean… I went right of HRC when Rossi left for Yamaha - oh wait - you mean Hillary! ooops.
I actually like Obama because he offers hope. I accept that there may be very little distance between them and that Hillary may be more electable, but I like what Obama stands for..
May 29th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
I think the charge of racism is grossly overstated. Both Clintons have sent their lives opposing racism. The Obama supporters are prepared to denounce them as closet Jim Crow supporters. It kind of calls in question the same group accusing the white working class of the same charge.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Whaddya mean, the choice of sane Americans? Are you claiming that there are some, and that you perhaps are one?
Ripper comments Sean, if anyone can translate them into English, but my question to you is not what country you come from, but from what friggin’ planet? And what mangled rationale gave you your doctorate in idiocy to suddenly hijack this great blog with your drug-induced load of blithering twat and absurd jibberish such as this:
You state that the following traits are important for a presidential candidate: 1) actual accomplishments in national public life; and 2) winning the presidential election.
Hmmm, so it’s very important for a presidential candidate to have won a presidential election. Yeah, right. Then you explain all this quite clearly by saying that you “helped incrementally to destroy a hire car between LA and Miami, so psst, Bobby Kennedy was white.”
Oh, so that clears it all up, thankyou.
Hey Sean, if you want to hijack something then go hijack a jumbo jet and fly it into your own house, don’t suddenly steamroller your uninvited way into this fine blog, insulting Ken on the way, who is actually a highly literate person -(which is diametrically opposed to your stunted IQ) and fluck off out of here.
And anyway, who let the dogs out?
May 29th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Hmmm, even more “robust” than I thought! You’ve not exactly set out to counter the “crazy eyed supporter” allegation, have you?
Your comprehension problems are not necessarily my composition problems, Ms Konder. Nevertheless:
Most people at Surfdom know my nationality, since I’ve been commenting and occasionally blogging here since the blog’s inception. I doubt I would call America a “foreign land” and point out that I don’t have a vote there, if I were in fact American.
One of the worst sentences ever constructed madam, which is a mistake when criticising others’ writing. Does a rationale give a doctorate? I wouldn’t have thought it possible for a concept to serve on a board of examiners, although perhaps a ‘mangled’ idea could get itself appointed by affirmative action, before more able bodied pieces of reasoning.
I don’t think writing at the invitation of the blog owner constitutes “hi-jacking”.
A “twat” is either a vagina or a silly person; you may certainly call me one, and others have, but not my argument.
I have not taken any drugs today at all. Could you send me some of yours? Or is the problem that your are off your meds?
Ken is indeed a highly literate person and I look forward to his response, if he can be arsed.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Go Anna, go!
May 29th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Sean, you may not have liked my idea of joining the EU (it’s still a good idea, just a little premature), but I agree with you on this Hillary caper.
So does that grumpy old bastard Somerby at daily howler:
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh052808.shtml
Given his willingness to talk to his enemies, I prefer Obama, but Hillary doesn’t deserve this.
May 30th, 2008 at 12:29 am
If, as you say, the capitalist U.S media are succeeding in their conspiratorial attempt to get McCain elected, then more fool the Democratic Party and the country’s so-called progressives for so easily allowing the wool to be pulled over their eyes. Talk about gullible!
How is it that the entire Republican Party, a bunch of media bigwigs, an Aussie blogger named Sean and yours truly (a suburban housewife) can see the writing on the wall for Obama, but apparentally no-one in the Democratic Party can? That’s right, the whole lot of them - Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Edwards, Harry Reid, MoveOn.org, The Huffington Post, The Daily Kos, Oprah Winfrey, Scarlett Johansen and all the other beautiful people in Hollywood - they’ve all been hoodwinked by the media. And to be hoodwinked by the media on such a grand scale really doesn’t say very much about the Democratic Party’s ability to think for itself. Quite frankly, a party that can be so easily duped doesn’t deserve to be at the wheels of government.
Now, remind me again how the U.S media ‘monstered’ Al Gore. Was it the Nobel Peace Prize or the Academy Award?
Remind me again how the U.S media ‘monstered’ Bill Clinton. Was it that he managed to keep his job after committing perjury or is it the small fortune he has made from book sales and talking engagements since leaving office?
Remind me again how the U.S media monstered John Kerry. Let me guess - it must have been their almost complete refusal to question him on the subject of his unwillingness to open up his military records (as George Bush has done). Cover-up? Never!
Oh to be monstered by the U.S media!
George Bush should be so lucky…
May 30th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Lol sjk, that was a while ago. I still don’t reckon you’ll find a tow rope thick enough to get us up there.
In case my attempts at humour have gone too awry, I’d be quite happy with Obama as president. On the possibility of being wrong on his chances, non-compulsory voting could quite well stuff up my hopefully-semi-informed intuition. “Aaah hear he’s a moo-slim” might be the sort of thought had by people who don’t actually think about politics much and are less likely to show up to vote. Then again, that’s a reason the smear campaigns are so much worse over there, because they have to totally freak people out about candidate X, to get them out to vote, and as I say in the post, totally outrageous mischaracterisations have worked before.
Though not, at the polling booth, against Bill or Hill.
May 30th, 2008 at 1:00 am
I congratulate you on your post Sean.
Whilst I prefer Obama to Hillary Clinton, it’s good to have different views being expressed here.
I agree with you that Ken’s post was a massive over-reaction to Clinton’s comments.
I can only assume that ‘Anna Konder’ is taking the piss as Sean is entitled to his views and that includes disagreeing with Ken. If being a regular at this blog means having to suck up to anyone and their views then it’s not something I’d want to be part of. I would ask why anyone would want to be part of such a blog.
Reasoned debate and discussion is very healthy.
Keep up the good work Sean.
May 30th, 2008 at 2:12 am
“but I did American lit at uni and also helped incrementally destroy a hire car between LA and Miami, ”
Not great qualifications for commenting on US politics, but better than most. However, I don’t trust your gut.
I’ve been following the US (via the blogosphere) on a daily basis for the past 4 years and here’s why I think you’re wrong
1. Hils has run a disasterously bad campaign. An incompetent shambles in fact.
Her first campaign manager ran the thing for months under the delusion that Democratic primary races were winner-take-all rather than proportional allocation - despite several people who made attempts to correct him right at the outset. This fundamentally stupid mistake led the Clinton campaign to ignore minor states and let Obama run the card. That’s when they lost.
By the time Clinton realized her mistake she was done for.
Secondly her campaign team has been riddled with backbiting, unclear structure and lines of authority and Bill should have been sent home - he’s mucked things up and been a source of controversy several times.
And that’s without all the “nuance” of her message where she has played the race, victim, and security cards - all Republican set pieces. Don’t tell me she hasn’t done this, because she has and it’s been sickening to watch.
She’ also wasted a large proportion of her funds on consultants rather than putting them towards getting real votes. In the last few weeks she’s had funding trouble and has had to put in some of her own money.
2. Obama has run a fantastic campaign
Unlike Clinton, Obama has built a 50 state organization with massive depth, has raised an incredible amount of money from small donors and has used it effectively.
His team is hermetic, they don’t leak and they seem to be able to speak with one voice.
Obama himself is a fantastic speaker, very articulate, concise and persuasive. He’s been able to neutralize or turn around issues and problems very effectively. Witness his even tempered, sane response last week to a bizzare McCain rant.
3. If you’ve been watching the Clinton vs McCain and Obama vs McCain numbers over the last two months you’d notice that Obama has come from behind and is now showing very similar ability to beat McCain to that of Clinton
Unlike Clinton - who will never win a vote she doesn’t already have - Obama is building support.
4. Obama is an incredibly good speaker *and* is very nimble when problems occur. He turned a crisis with his pastor into one of the best speaches in decades. Although he later had to top it off by repudiating Wright, he a.) killed the issue and b.) broke the consensus of inside-the-beltway pundits
Then there’s the clincher - the Republicans want to run against Clinton. She’s their only hope. As evidence, I offer Rush’s “Operation Chaos” which encouraged Republicans to temporalliy register as Democrats and vote for Clinton so as to stuff up the Democratic primaries.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:14 am
Nicely put…most.
“Tim gave me a log in”
That was good of him. Nothing like vigorous debate and alternative views to stimulate the heart muscles of Democracy…:)
Maybe Hillary team UNIVERSE could contact the angst-ridden of America by phone & leave a recorded message from financial wizard & ancient blue dog Greenspan:
“We’re in the midst of a recession, that’s right…you heard me…A RECESSION…kind of. The little kind of recession that has the chance of growing into that jump out of tall buildings and ride the top of them trains type.
But don’t you worry too much…if you get scared…there’s always prescription drugs.
(a sucking sound)
So yes, be very panicked…worried enough to use your next handout gratis of the Reserve Bank & Chinese consulate to buy the latest technological contraption to store in your cupboard just in case. Always be prepared. We don’t want you missing out on Sex and the City Goes Dallas now, do we?
(a sound somewhat like sandpaper being used on denim)
Cough…but I don’t expect you will be scared enough to expect a redistribution of income…there’s absolutely no way on God & Walmart’s Earth that we will be dipping into that pot…do you hear me you lowlife slugs?…I mean folks.
(sniffing…the irritating kind that goes on for seeemingly an eternity & the caller begins to think they are listening to a conversation between Royals)
Hmmm…particularly if you can’t spell MILTON…like I said…be scared…particularly of men with the same shade as Zimbabwean dictators who juggle tomatoes that cost two hundred dollars a pound.
(pregnant pause…or time enuff for love…as Allan goes for a piss…tinkling sound in background)
ahem…I’m Allan Greenspan, and I support Hillary Rodham Clinton for President & Wonder Woman.
(”da da” sound)
You are presently on a rollercoaster of my making and recommend you enjoy the ride.
(whoosh…grinding noises…& screaming that resembles humans having enormous digits stuck up their unsuspecting backsides)
Vote One Billary. And don’t forget…you’re F*CKED…until I tell you otherwise…
I’LL BE BACK…bleeep.”
May 30th, 2008 at 4:20 am
Oh yea, those so called “blue collar” supporters of Hillrods might want to feast their work worn eyes on this:
http://www.counterpunch.com/
(Fixers Indicated That Hillary Was a Key Player in the Marc Rich Pardon Deal, Bill Clinton and the Rich Women, By JEFFREY ST. CLAIR, May 29, 2008)
As for the health-care stuff…better late than never I guess. I’m sure those rural types waitin’ on a plane to bring them charity and a checkup will be thrilled to know affordable health-care is being spread gradually by the friends & allies of the Clintons so the bank don’t get broke & the WITCHY WITCHES OF AMERIKA don’t cry foul…
and them poor folk can get accustomed to CHANGE w/out FREAKIN’ OUT.
May 30th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
What he said!
May 30th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
American elections get what, 20% voter turnout, if the weather is nice?
From what I understand, Obama tends to mobilise people who don’t normally vote. That alone could swing the real election (as opposed to this weirdo public internal selection process thing) his way. An extra 5% of the population turning up to the polling booth = an extra 25% of the vote.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Nas, re your link,
This is the sort of snide crap I’m partly talking about mate. The differences between James Carville and Bill Richardson arise from politics and Richardson’s perceived lack of loyalty, not because Hillary is anti-Hispanic as so passive-aggressively implied.
I suppose no one else remembers Bill Clinton being referred to as a “nigger lover” during his political career? I won’t treat you to the Stormfront links. Perhaps have a read of this instead:
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=is_he_a_soul_man
Sorry about the primitive link - computer problems. The above article isn’t exactly hagiography either, essentially arguing that all of Clinton’s positive work on race issues is negated by sins of omission and, of course, the BJ.
Nas the Clintons have been accused of all sorts of bullshit over the years, up to and including murder. The Republicans on the hill wasted vast sums of public money witch-hunting them both. The stain on Monica’s dress was the only thing that’d stick.
BOOM TISH!
As to health care and “better late than never”, I’m sure you’re aware Nas that her current policy is not her first attempt:
Then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan
Now:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/Issues/healthcare/
Think about THAT from a worker’s POV, Nas. Would the tories in this country ever go to a poll even hinting at dismantling universal health care? No. They’d lose Howard’s Remaining Battlers faster than you could say “political wilderness”. All of your Alan Greenspan business might seem like so much smoke to someone who sees a woman fighting for 18 years to guarantee her family medical treatment.
Also, point me to Obama’s direct wealth re-distribution policy.
Also also, universal health care IS a wealth re-distribution policy.
Chris,
I could tell you a story from the afore mentioned transcontinental research/blues brothers re-enactment trip, but I don’t want to be seen to be pandering to racists on behalf of Clinton (or McCain) by acknowledging their existence.
I sincerely hope you’re right, and will say that the gut feeling hasn’t risen to the level of The Good Guys Are Doomed yet. McCain is still busy being an idiot in various ways. Vaguely fair reporting would see him off against Obama’s pet dog. So you see why I’m worried.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
My thoughts exactly, thanks Sean.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:30 am
I’ll just remind the Hillary supporters that in late October/November of 2006 we heard the “I can see the writing on the wall” comments when some of us decided to push for Rudd over Beazley. Screams & howls of “we’ve lost for sure…doomed now”…but instead our Laborite & his team who offered up “a fair go for all” won the big fight.
This needs to be a HEALING election…& generally Hillary don’t HEAL. She DIVIDES. Look at this latest campaign.
Hillary voted to give GW Bush the opportunity to construct this FIASCO in Iraq. Considering her access to highly influential characters who knew the aims of the Busheviks & their oil & armament mates she voted to let them off the leash. Obama as an Illinois Senator did not show support when it MEANT something. He voted NO…against giving authority to Bush to invade.
A smarter man than me.
I reckon Hillary’s support-base is complex & deep-rooted…for instance, you’re not going to convince those women who want a full bore pro-abortion candidate they feel they can trust in. It’s like a religion…the flock want someone in charge who can make them feel better, justify their actions. Or give them a chance to confess. But not intrude in their lives too much.
Regardless of the evidence that she is unlikely to CHANGE the hold destructive corporations & other lobby groups have on America…it’s about voting in a SISTER who will look the other way. And to heck w/ everyone else. Particularly the children who never got a chance to breathe or see the LIGHT.
And if you don’t think I know about GUILT…then you’re way off base.
Like it or lump it, that’s how I see it. But hey, when yer a semi-vegan/vegetarian, life promoting, non-locally born, opinionated so & so, who admits he’s been, & sometimes still is, hypocritical…& like everyone else, has had his ars*hole moments…well, yer not likely to get much response.
Apart from the rare jovial, more tolerant, wide-thinking or curious commentor. Or the occasional wrestler.
You get the feeling you write too much. Sometimes that’s confirmed. You aren’t stupid, you know it…but it’s not going to stop you…it never hurt the propagandists who brought us this SH*T.
But you’ll try harder…everyday. But it’s easy to forget in the fog of war, in the conflict zone. Or out in space. Or in the debating hall.
You know sometimes you aren’t wanted. You push too many buttons. You irritate. You’re too full on. You’ve CHANGED the atmosphere too much. You’re full of yourself. You’re a tin-foil hatter. You’re breaking taboos. You’re boring. You’re a pissant. A “know it all”.
A dumb rookie.
Been there, done that.
And you tend to end threads.
So be it.
But it doesn’t stop you from saying what you think needs to be said. The world didn’t CHANGE because people kept SILENT…or because people looked away.
ONE VOICE…shouldn’t scare away others. Because it is DIFFERENT.
Thnx to Tim for the opportunities. I enjoy them. Remember to contribute if you can people. Maintaining sites & moving servers can be expensive…particularly when you’ve got children to look after.
And brill comments on here lately. Most at least.
Keep posting Sean. Our Democracy needs it. And it needs CHANGE too.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:11 pm
And how did Hillary win over NY?
Any governors…& friends of comic book enthusiasts involved?
The rivers run deep…& the sources fairly unexplored…or at least not a tourist site for the masses.
That’s not to say I don’t dig the journey & understand the usefulness of the river…& it’s long & winding route.
June 3rd, 2008 at 4:19 am
I’ve been a bit annoyed w/ Bill & Hillary Clinton of late…wish I hadn’t…but the world wobbles when you open your eyes & do some research…& i’ve been saddened by some of the info/articles i’ve read…& posted/linked to…still, take it w/ a pinch of salt…the truth is as tangible as wisps of smoke…
There’s no two-ways about it, they’re a polarising couple…but have a charming, intelligent daughter…they are complex…have done wonderful things…& a number of not so good things…
Their way of campaigning can be effective…their way of getting funding can be sometimes highly questionable…they use signing & symbols that can be problematic and taken the wrong way…even threatening…like some of the phonecalls we hear about to reporters from their campaign team…
However, their overall approach to campaigning & governing can be imaginative…& sometimes helpful for the under-privileged…sometimes it’s hyperbole…and ruthless…occasionally their organisations push worthwile charities/groups out of the way in order to be noticed…or make it harder for them to do their job…
And sometimes their more extreme tactics are understandable considering the heat of elections and what’s at stake…& the mob they often have as opposition…Obama excluded…
But in the long run I think their approach is becoming antiquated, too obvious, in-yer-face & damaging for the Country…setting a bad example…like some of their choices & exploits.
But then…who hasn’t screwed up now & then? And how many of the witnesses & definers are really Tricky Dicks trying to damage their reputation?
Some of Hillary’s speeches, interviews & town hall meetings have been insightful…well articulated…inspiring…visionary…
I’m not impressed lately tho…not at all. Sadly.
The overall tenor & symbols don’t come across well to me. They seem to feed into the idea that the American public is THICK, FEARFUL, ARROGANTLY RELIGIOUS, WHITE or hoping/pretending to be WHITE, RACIST & CONCERNED MAINLY ABOUT PETROL PRICES & THE OLE MIGHTY DOLLAR.
It’s the politics of pragmatism, triangulation gone mad, grid-iron tactics, faux wrestling & Machiavellianism w/out HOPE, CHANGE and EMPOWERMENT. In many ways it is the Repugs.
Brutal…naked survivalism…”why worry?…we can clean up after the battle…if we get a chance.”
It’s the fakery & cynicism & power for Bill’s legacy re-make sake…the insincerity at times of Bush, Rove & Cheney…hidden the way they did it. Under a costume of BE AFRAID as BREAKING NEWS….& I CAN BE TOUGH…SICK & TOUGH.
Strange how so many have FAITH in mythical things…& God (whatever that is)…but NO FAITH in the American people.
SAD
The Clintons can also be hypocritical…but not unlike so many of us in the so called prosperous nations…
They have a strange & sometimes worrying bevy of allies & supporters…& many decent folks too…
And I think they also deserve a right of reply to their critics:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Clinton_attacks_Vanity_Fair.html
I wish I could feel better about Hillary’s campaign…I did for awhile…but now it’s
“I would if I could but I can’t so I wont”.
Maybe I’m just naive.