Ahmadinehitler
Australia in Iraq, US issues - - Posted on September, 23 at 9:18 pm by Ken L
Over the years the wingnuts have made a lot of mileage out of the ‘Bushitler’ gag … you know the one where they say all solemn like ‘Of course the Left thinks President Bush is as bad as Hitler’, whereupon (depending on the context) they either high five each other and fall to whoopin’ and hollerin’ with howls of derisive laughter or they turn puce and sputter and foam at the mouth.
Now no reasonable person could honestly argue that mainstream left opinion equates the President of the USA with Hitler. It’s a typical piece of wingnut misrepresentation.
But it now appears that the President of Iran is Hitler … concentration camp analogies and all.
These guys are sitting in their mom’s basement or wherever whipping themselves into a frenzy of hatred. They can’t wait to sit in their home theatres with massive boners, watching Iran get blown away.
Remind me again why we can’t leave Iraq because it would be really really awful if the global prestige of the USA were to be in any way diminished?
Posted in Australia in Iraq, US issues |
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:53 pm
All well and good, Ken, but yer missing a chance to deploy a juvenile insult when you charitably assume the wingnuts are capable of sporting “massive boners”.
September 24th, 2007 at 1:04 am
You know at the risk of being accused of being serious for a nano second,when you see and hear faux outrage from the U.S. rednecks,being ginned up by the Fox network,for an attack on Iran and Fox knowing full well most of the one tooth wonders hasn’t got a clue where Iran is.It is easy to work out how Herr fucking Shicklegruber, got the German people in a lather.
I reckon they can get around this impasse of Iran trying to get the bomb, by sending the much mis-understood Col Oliver North there to seek a diplomatic solution.This mans ability to shovel shit on,is a joy to behold.
September 24th, 2007 at 6:49 am
The more I read about this the more parallels there are to the initial successes of Hitler and some of the things that are going on now. Let me suggest something just from Phills post.
The Germans had an effective redneck/rightist/populist media effort under Goebbels. The US has Fox.
Germany had a grudge in the shape of the Versailles Treaty. The Yanks have 9/11. Both these circumstances were very emotional and combined, they are effective in whipping the hoi polloi into a blindly patriotic frenzy. So that part of the plan seems to be working.
A few other points - why are no parallels being drawn to the Japanese? In WW2 they marched off looking for resources. Like oil for instance.
Secondly, why are these ratbags referred to as wingnuts? Do they all have big ears? there’s gotta be a better name for them and wingnut is way too mild.
Redneck is too mild, too. Redneck seems to imply a gormlessly goofy, interbred, but generally harmless, sort of happy fool. Can someone come up with something else more appropriate?
September 24th, 2007 at 8:27 am
You had me chuckling all night Phill…other great comments by Ken & enkew…
now, I had heaps to say…but then I saw Zbigniew Brezinski on CNN’s Late Edition tonight who had the honesty to admit that the War in Iraq was not just about “9/11″ & “Security” but also as Greenspan said “Oil”…& then the kicker…”Israel”.
I agree Israel must be protected from destruction or invasion…but as Brezinski mentioned, Israel has at least 200 hundred (?) nuclear missiles…
& we also have this:
“Former U.S. Commander Downplays Nuclear Iran
2007-09-18
Retired Gen. John Abizaid, the former U.S. commander in Iraq, said all efforts should be made to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, but if Tehran did the world could live with it.
“Iran is not a suicide nation,” he said. “I mean, they may have some people in charge that don’t appear to be rational, but I doubt that the Iranians intend to attack us with a nuclear weapon.”
Gen. Abizaid said the U.S. could deter Iran from using such weapons against it. He said the Iranians know the U.S. is far superior militarily.
“I believe that we have the power to deter Iran, should it become nuclear,” he said.
Gen. Abizaid also said the U.S. has lived with a nuclear-armed Soviet Union and now Russia, as well as China and other nuclear powers. “There are ways to live with a nuclear Iran,” he said.
(newsroom america. com)
———
so why the ramping up of war w/ Iran?
and why did Hillary Clinton on CNN today state she opposed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad from visiting the WTC site…when we know he had nothing to do w/ the attacks?
And why does Mahmoud Ahmadinejad insist on waving the red flag at Israel & America?
It makes me highly suspicious in regards to who Clinton & Ahmadinejad are REALLY working for. Certainly not WORLD PEACE.
The CHESS PLAYERS just keep on diverting attention from the world’s real problems…& keep the money & assets rolling in for the themselves via their puppets.
I just wish the young people who volunteer for these ‘bogus wars’ knew it. Ingmar Bergman & Satyajit Ray did.
Here’s a reminder:
April 24, 1967 - General Westmoreland condemns anti-war demonstrators saying they give the North Vietnamese soldier “hope that he can win politically that which he cannot accomplish militarily.” Privately, he has already warned President Johnson “the war could go on indefinitely.”
July 1967 - General Westmoreland requests an additional 200,000 reinforcements on top of the 475,000 soldiers already scheduled to be sent to Vietnam, which would bring the U.S. total in Vietnam to 675,000. President Johnson agrees only to an extra 45,000.
August 9, 1967 - The Senate Armed Services Committee begins closed-door hearings concerning the influence of civilian advisors on military planning. During the hearings, Defense Secretary McNamara testifies that the extensive and costly U.S. bombing campaign in Vietnam is failing to impact North Vietnam’s war making ability in South Vietnam and that nothing short of “the virtual annihilation of North Vietnam and its people” through bombing would ever succeed.
October 1967 - A public opinion poll indicates 46 percent of Americans now believe U.S. military involvement in Vietnam to be a “mistake.” However, most Americans also believe that the U.S. should “win or get out” of Vietnam. Also in October, Life magazine renounces its earlier support of President Johnson’s war policies.
October 31, 1967 - President Johnson reaffirms his commitment to maintain U.S. involvement in South Vietnam.
March 25, 1968 - Clark Clifford convenes the “Wise Men,” a dozen distinguished elder statesmen and soldiers, including former Secretary of State Dean Acheson and World War II General Omar Bradley at the State Department for dinner. They are given a blunt assessment of the situation in Vietnam, including the widespread corruption of the Saigon government and the unlikely prospect for military victory “under the present circumstances.”
March 26, 1968 - The “Wise Men” gather at the White House for lunch with the President. They now advocate U.S. withdrawal from Vietnam, with only four of those present dissenting from that opinion.
April 4, 1968 - Civil rights leader Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King is assassinated in Memphis. Racial unrest then erupts in over 100 American cities.
April 23, 1968 - Anti-war activists at Columbia University seize five buildings.
June 5, 1968 - Robert F. Kennedy is shot and mortally wounded in Los Angeles just after winning the California Democratic presidential primary election.
July 1, 1968 - The Phoenix program is established to crush the secret Viet Cong infrastructure (VCI) in South Vietnam. The VCI, estimated at up to 70,000 Communist guerrillas, has been responsible for a long-standing campaign of terror against Americans, South Vietnamese government officials, village leaders and innocent civilians.
However, the Phoenix program, which is controlled through CORDS under the direction of Robert Komer, generates huge controversy in America concerning numerous alleged assassinations of suspected Viet Cong operatives by South Vietnamese trained by the U.S. The controversy, generated in part through North Vietnamese propaganda, eventually results in Congressional hearings. Testifying in 1971 before Congress, Komer’s successor William E. Colby states, “The Phoenix program was not a program of assassination. The Phoenix program was a part of the overall pacification program.” Colby admits that 20,587 Viet Cong had been killed “mostly in combat situations…by regular or paramilitary forces.”
August 8, 1968 - Richard M. Nixon is chosen as the Republican presidential candidate and promises “an honorable end to the war in Vietnam.”
August 28, 1968 - During the Democratic national convention in Chicago, 10,000 anti-war protesters gather on downtown streets and are then confronted by 26,000 police and national guardsmen. The brutal crackdown is covered live on network TV. 800 demonstrators are injured.
The United States is now experiencing a level of social unrest unseen since the American Civil War era, a hundred years earlier. There have been 221 student protests at 101 colleges and universities thus far in 1968.
November 27, 1968 - President-elect Nixon asks Harvard professor Henry Kissinger to be his National Security Advisor. Kissinger accepts.
July 1969 - President Nixon, through a French emissary, sends a secret letter to Ho Chi Minh urging him to settle the war, while at the same time threatening to resume bombing if peace talks remain stalled as of November 1. In August, Hanoi responds by repeating earlier demands for Viet Cong participation in a coalition government in South Vietnam.
July 8, 1969 - The very first U.S. troop withdrawal occurs as 800 men from the 9th Infantry Division are sent home. The phased troop withdrawal will occur in 14 stages from July 1969 through November 1972.
April 30, 1970 - President Nixon stuns Americans by announcing U.S. and South Vietnamese incursion into Cambodia “…not for the purpose of expanding the war into Cambodia but for the purpose of ending the war in Vietnam and winning the just peace we desire.” The announcement generates a tidal wave of protest by politicians, the press, students, professors, clergy members, business leaders, and many average Americans against Nixon and the Vietnam War.
The incursion is in response to continuing Communist gains against Lon Nol’s forces and is also intended to weaken overall NVA military strength as a prelude to U.S. departure from Vietnam.
May 1, 1970 - May Day, the traditional Communist holiday. A combined force of 15,000 U.S. and South Vietnamese soldiers attack NVA supply bases inside Cambodia. However, throughout this offensive, NVA and Viet Cong carefully avoid large-scale battles and instead withdraw westward, further into Cambodia, leaving behind their base camps containing huge stores of weapons and ammunition.
May 2, 1970 - American college campuses erupt in protest over the invasion of Cambodia.
May 4, 1970 - At Kent State University in Ohio, National Guardsmen shoot and kill four student protesters and wound nine.
In response to the killings, over 400 colleges and universities across America shut down. In Washington, nearly 100,000 protesters surround various government buildings including the White House and historical monuments. On an impulse, President Nixon exits the White House and pays a late night surprise visit to the Lincoln Memorial and chats with young protesters.
June 30, 1970 - U.S. troops withdraw from Cambodia. Over 350 Americans died during the incursion.
August 11, 1970 - South Vietnamese troops take over the defense of border positions from U.S. troops.
August 24, 1970 - Heavy B-52 bombing raids occur along the Demilitarized Zone.
December 22, 1970 - The Cooper-Church amendment to the U.S. defense appropriations bill forbids the use of any U.S. ground forces in Laos or Cambodia.
American troop levels drop to 280,000 by year’s end. During the year, an estimated 60,000 soldiers experimented with drugs, according to the U.S. command. There were also over 200 incidents of “fragging” in which unpopular officers were attacked with fragmentation grenades by men under their command. In addition, many units are now plagued by racial unrest, reflecting the disharmony back home.
January 4, 1971 - President Nixon announces “the end is in sight.”
March 10, 1971 - China pledges complete support for North Vietnam’s struggle against the U.S.
May 3-5 - A mass arrest of 12,000 protesters occurs in Washington.
June 1971 - During a college commencement speech, Senator Mike Mansfield labels the Vietnam war “a tragic mistake.”
was ever found guilty.
June 13, 1971 - The New York Times begins publication of the ‘Pentagon Papers,’ a secret Defense Department archive of the paperwork involved in decisions made by previous White House administrations concerning Vietnam. Publication of the classified documents infuriates President Nixon.
June 15, 1971 - Nixon attempts to stop further publication of the Pentagon Papers through legal action against the Times in the U.S. District Court.
June 30, 1971 - The U.S. Supreme Court rules 6-3 in favor of the New York Times and Washington Post publication of the Pentagon Papers.
July 17, 1971 - The ‘Plumbers’ unit is established in the White House by Nixon aides John Ehrlichman and Charles Colson to investigate Daniel Ellsberg and to ‘plug’ various news leaks. Colson also compiles an ‘enemies list’ featuring the names of 200 prominent Americans considered to be anti-Nixon.
August 18, 1971 - Australia and New Zealand announce the pending withdrawal of their troops from Vietnam.
October 9, 1971 - Members of the U.S. 1st Air Cavalry Division refuse an assignment to go out on patrol by expressing “a desire not to go.” This is one in a series of American ground troops engaging in “combat refusal.”
February 21-28 - President Nixon visits China and meets with Mao Zedong and Prime Minister Zhou Enlai to forge new diplomatic relations with the Communist nation. Nixon’s visit causes great concern in Hanoi that their wartime ally China might be inclined to agree to an unfavorable settlement of the war to improve Chinese relations with the U.S.
March 10, 1972 - The U.S. 101st Airborne Division is withdrawn from Vietnam.
April 30, 1972 - U.S. troop levels drop to 69,000.
May 17, 1972 - According to U.S. reports, Operation Linebacker I is damaging North Vietnam’s ability to supply NVA troops engaged in the Eastertide Offensive.
May 22-30 - President Nixon visits the Soviet Union and meets with Leonid Brezhnev to forge new diplomatic relations with the Communist nation. Nixon’s visit causes great concern in Hanoi that their Soviet ally might be inclined to agree to an unfavorable settlement of the war to improve Soviet relations with the U.S.
June 17, 1972 - Five burglars are arrested inside the Watergate building in Washington while attempting to plant hidden microphones in the Democratic National Committee offices. Subsequent investigations will reveal they have ties to the Nixon White House.
July 13, 1972 - Paris peace talks resume.
July 18, 1972 - During a visit to Hanoi, actress Jane Fonda broadcasts anti-war messages via Hanoi Radio.
August 23, 1972 - The last U.S. combat troops depart Vietnam.
September 29, 1972 - Heavy U.S. air raids against airfields in North Vietnam destroy 10 percent of their air force.
October 8, 1972 - The long-standing diplomatic stalemate between Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho finally ends as both sides agree to major concessions. The U.S. will allow North Vietnamese troops already in South Vietnam to remain there, while North Vietnam drops its demand for the removal of South Vietnam’s President Thieu and the dissolution of his government.
Although Kissinger’s staff members privately express concerns over allowing NVA troops to remain in the South, Kissinger rebuffs them, saying, “I want to end this war before the election.”
October 22, 1972 - Operation Linebacker I ends. U.S. warplanes flew 40,000 sorties and dropped over 125,000 tons of bombs during the bombing campaign which effectively disrupted North Vietnam’s Eastertide Offensive.
During the failed offensive, the North suffered an estimated 100,000 military casualties and lost half its tanks and artillery. Leader of the offensive, legendary General Vo Nguyen Giap, the victor at Dien Bien Phu, was then quietly ousted in favor of his deputy Gen. Van Tien Dung. 40,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died stopping the offensive, in the heaviest fighting of the entire war.
December 18, 1972 - Operation Linebacker II begins. The so called ‘Christmas bombings’ are widely denounced by American politicians, the media, and various world leaders including the Pope. North Vietnamese filmed footage of civilian casualties further fuels the outrage. In addition, a few downed B-52 pilots make public statements in North Vietnam against the bombing.
December 26, 1972 - North Vietnam agrees to resume peace negotiations within five days of the end of bombing.
December 29, 1972 - Operation Linebacker II ends what had been the most intensive bombing campaign of the entire war with over 100,000 bombs dropped on Hanoi and Haiphong. Fifteen of the 121 B-52s participating were shot down by the North Vietnamese who fired 1200 SAMs. There were 1318 civilian deaths from the bombing, according to Hanoi.
January 27, 1973 - The Paris Peace Accords are signed by the U.S., North Vietnam, South Vietnam and the Viet Cong. Under the terms, the U.S. agrees to immediately halt all military activities and withdraw all remaining military personnel within 60 days. The North Vietnamese agree to an immediate cease-fire and the release of all American POWs within 60 days. An estimated 150,000 North Vietnamese soldiers presently in South Vietnam are allowed to remain. Vietnam is still divided. South Vietnam is considered to be one country with two governments, one led by President Thieu, the other led by Viet Cong, pending future reconciliation.
January 27, 1973 - Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird announces the draft is ended in favor of voluntary enlistment.
January 27, 1973 - The last American soldier to die in combat in Vietnam, Lt. Col. William B. Nolde, is killed.
March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares “the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come.”
America’s longest war, and its first defeat, thus concludes. During 15 years of military involvement, over 2 million Americans served in Vietnam with 500,000 seeing actual combat. 47,244 were killed in action, including 8000 airmen. There were 10,446 non-combat deaths. 153,329 were seriously wounded, including 10,000 amputees. Over 2400 American POWs/MIAs were unaccounted for as of 1973.
May 9, 1974 - Congress begins impeachment proceedings against President Nixon stemming from the Watergate scandal.
August 9, 1974 - Richard M. Nixon resigns the presidency as result of Watergate. Gerald R. Ford is sworn in as the 38th U.S. President, becoming the 6th President coping with Vietnam.
September 1974 - The U.S. Congress appropriates only $700 million for South Vietnam. This leaves the South Vietnamese Army under-funded and results in a decline of military readiness and morale.
September 16, 1974 - President Gerald R. Ford announces a clemency program for draft evaders and military deserters. The program runs through March 31, 1975, and requires fugitives to take an oath of allegiance and also perform up to two years of community service. Out of an estimated 124,000 men eligible, about 22,500 take advantage of the offer.
April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is “a war that is finished as far as America is concerned.”
April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.
April 28, 1975 - ‘Neutralist’ General Duong Van “Big” Minh becomes the new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. His appeal is ignored.
April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song “White Christmas” as a pre-arraigned code signal.
At Tan Son Nhut, frantic civilians begin swarming the helicopters. The evacuation is then shifted to the walled-in American embassy, which is secured by U.S. Marines in full combat gear. But the scene there also deteriorates, as thousands of civilians attempt to get into the compound.
Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off the coast of Vietnam to handle incoming Americans and South Vietnamese refugees. Many South Vietnamese pilots also land on the carriers, flying American-made helicopters which are then pushed overboard to make room for more arrivals. Filmed footage of the $250,000 choppers being tossed into the sea becomes an enduring image of the war’s end.
April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender.
The war is over.
source:
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1965.html
September 24th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Aaw nas ever thought of just giving the link?
Enkew your analogy with Japan is a good one that I’ve made before. Then again there are further parallels with 1930s Germany, not least the way in which nobody actually took Mein Kampf seriously as a statement of intent. Likewise the Project for a New American Century’s declared ambitions, which we know have been very influential within the Bush Administration. One could also mention the way both regimes used a vague external threat (Zionism/terrorism) to whip up paranoia and justify authoritarian action.
Then again the points of difference are enormous, demonstrating that events have to be analysed on their own unique merits. While historical comparisons can sometimes provide useful insights, they can also be dangerously misleading.
September 24th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Nasking there’s nothing wrong with long posts if they are your own ideas and you try to make them interesting. If using other’s ideas the general ettiquette rules are:
(1) Quote the first few paragraphs and then link to the rest; or
(2) Carry out an accurate precis of an entire article and save the legwork for your readers.
(3) Posting entire articles is ok in rare instances if they are extremely newsworthy or inaccessible on the web.
(4) Posting ordinary articles in full — especially if they are only marginally relevant or of historical interest only — is the equivalent of inviting guests to dinner, placing uncooked meat and veggies in front of them and pointing them towards the stove.
It’s a mild criticism, mate, and I enjoy your ideas. Give (1) and (2) a bigger go and say why you think particular articles might interest readers.
September 24th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Mamoud Ahmadinejad speaks here to CBS 60 Minutes, arguing, I think, unconvincingly that Iran would not be securer if it had nuclear weapons.Some things as always are lost in translation, but he makes the standard case against the policies and practices of the US Administration.
Why indeed, do reporters, and others, presume to speak on behalf of the American, or for that matter the Australian, people?
The link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/20/60minutes/main3282230.shtml#ccmm
September 24th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
keep it to yourself kenj, i don’t criticise your posts.
September 24th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
btw, i will try to refrain from posting longer posts using material other than my own frome here-on-in, but just know this, some people don’t like hitting the link…& do get something out of reading the articles i post. I edit them the way i do for a reason. Just because they don’t fit your criteria kenj doesn’t mean they aren’t useful. These are serious times. Serious times call for different measures.
comment noted ken L.
September 24th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
and btw…i spent a heck of alot of time this morning reducing that Vietnam War stuff down to what i saw as essential stuff that can be compared to Iraq & upcoming Iran, Colombia Uni etc. There are plenty of people out there who don’t know that history. I thought it would be a timely reminder.
September 24th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
There’s merit on both sides of this one but I’m staying well out of it. It’s like a spat in the family. I love youse all. Even obby.
September 24th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
:)…plenty of that going on lately. Anyway, i’m almost over it. I will concede that occasionally i post pieces that are too drawn out or provide too much info. to consume in one sitting…& could use better sign posting. But heck, i’m just trying to help, via the butterfly effect, empower cyber-surfers & somehow prevent this potential HELLCLONE the Neo-cons & their Enablers wanna drag us into…hoping that someone in the Iranian regime will realise there are many of us out there who do give a sh*t about their people & would like to see them back away from the abyss…give diplomacy a chance.
I try different ways to get my points across…& sometimes I f*ck up….bore the crap outa readers. I’m sorry for that. But one thing i can state quite adamantly, i’m not lazy…& i don’t expect others to do all the legwork…or do too little brain work for that matter. I do what i think is right, & i’ve never stopped learning…even if i can be a tad sensitive to criticism at times…i absorb it, get over it, move on. Eventually.
But, i will say this. One of the reasons i rarely regret leaving the education sector, is the memory of condescending peers who rarely said a positive word to you, but didn’t hesitate to criticise & offload on you if they were under stress & required a wailing wall.
The song ‘free bird’ runs thru my head constantly. That’s me. Sometimes its the so called pursuers of ‘justice’, ‘truth’ & ‘freedom’ who end up deterring others from doing the same. I saw it happen to plenty of kids in the schools i taught in.
I always try to remember, “different strokes for different folks”…and “it takes all kinds…”.
Apologies for derailing the thread. I’ll F*ck off now for awhile.
AMERICA OUT OF IRAQ!
HOWARD OUT! RUDD IN!
September 24th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
People, the real issue is Iran.
The thing is that Bush and his right wing cronies think they can make the hit and walk away with NO penalty. They are stupid enough to think that they are still a superpower - and invincible. Even the frogs have been conned.
The trouble is that Iran knows that these turkeys are all vulnerable after the Iraq experiment and will hit back with a powerful right jab and possibly also a kick in the balls.
Imagine this.
A quick and deadly airstrike by the US and a few select allies - maybe even the French.
Followed by a major attack somewhere in a Western city - sponsored by Iran, Iraq and some helpers.
My questions are - Who wins? And who is to blame? And why do we let them get away with it?
September 24th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Nasking, you’re a legend and one of the good guys. Post what works for you, mate. As I understand it most people here are very pleased to hear your views — I certainly am. I’m just a bit toey about longer articles from other sources. Drink more and stay happy. Your views are always welcome.
September 24th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
…and btw Nasking there’s nothing wrong with taking the time and effort to keep yourself up to date on current affairs, and being passionate about important issues. That’s very much to your credit (and a great deal more than most people do). More power to you, N.
September 24th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Redneck seems to imply a gormlessly goofy, interbred, but generally harmless, sort of happy fool. Can someone come up with something else more appropriate?
Well I thought of “Cunts” But Cunts are useful and stink,these fucking rednecks just stink.
And no offense to the lady bloggers I’d live in it if it wasn’t so damp,it effects my arthritis.
September 24th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Nasking, I know if you had posted a link I would have gone and had a look , saw that it was too looong and not read the history.
Very well condensed, to think I lived through that period and was in the CMF (nasho).As I read what you wrote, I remembered how bad it was.
Why oh why the so called leaders of the free World cannot remember our mistakes of the past.
Keep up the good work.
PS. Those bombing and the napalm were devastating and help bring on Pol Pot.
So, if the neocons do attack Iran, what evil will that action bring on us.
September 24th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Can’t let that go unchallenged Phill. I think you’ll find that the streets of Berlin wasn’t exactly a thronging mass of delirious war-mongering citizenry when Poland was invaded.
September 24th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
But on second thoughts maybe you were talking about that troublesome Semitic thing.
September 24th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
“Can’t let that go unchallenged Phill. I think you’ll find that the streets of Berlin wasn’t exactly a thronging mass of delirious war-mongering citizenry when Poland was invaded”
I will answer that asinine comment with the sincere belief you are taking the piss.
So the Germans weren’t a thronging mass of war mongering citizenry when Poland was invaded.?
So all those pro American and British docos I have watched about the rise and fall of the Nazi Party since oh I dont know since 1955 have all been doctored up have they? Look if your telling me the Germans weren’t sucked in by this fucker ,and didn’t support him in his quest to dominate the planet than please let me know,and I will not bother replying anymore.
It’s gonna take another thousand fucking years for the German people to get over the fuck up of following Hitler and his attempted genocide,not just of the Jews,but Gypsy’s,Slavs,Russians, and any other fucker that didn’t have an Aryan kisser, end of story.
As an aside my old man fought in WW2 (not an armchair general)and he told me even after they were arrested after D Day they were still the arrogant bastards that were at the Nuremberg rallies fucking Zheeeesh.
September 24th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
thnx kenj for the kind words…I also find your work enlightening, well researched, succint & generally “kick-arse!”…:)…btw, sorry, i’m a bit toey meself…i blame it on my frustration over the lack of effort by some politicians & others of influence in the USA & Iran in preventing what will turn out to be another horrendous mistake if it goes ahead…specifically, the bombing of Iran & the reluting firestorm & escalation of oil prices - you read the extent of the casualties in Vietnam & Cambodia as stated in some of the above paragraphs…& what it did to the social fabric of American society & you’ll get my drift…
& of course the length of this election has also got me pissed, i thought we’d be close to crossing the line at this point. I give credit to Aussie Sheila, Phill & others, they got it right when they said the little worm would drag it out as long as possible.
Still, if Howard - Australia’s Lord & Master - thinks that prolonging the inevitable is gonna to stop the likes of us from raining stones on his parade he’s got another thing coming. It should be pretty obvious to the exreme Right-Wing by now we can sort out our probs/differences quickly & remain politically engaged, aware, chew gum, surf, debate…& send out lightning bolts, all at the same time…:)
Thnx for the supportive words Muskiemp, glad you got something out of the piece, sorry for the awful memories tho…it was a bit long…but i really do want people to think back on that era, or newly discover it, and realise how dreadful this War really can get if it is continued & spread into other regions like Iran - as tho it’s not bloody awful & tragic already eh?
By training Sunnis (some being the very same insurgents & terrorists the COW were fighting previously) & by ensuring they have money & weaponry, the American military that is being urged on by the imperialist & oil-soaked Neo-Cons & their paranoid Israeli allies, are just making things worse.
COW could’ve got out earlier & left the place in a reasonable state. But instead they’ve armed & trained opposing factions/sects & helped enhance sectarian violence across Iraq & the Middle East. Once they hit Iran they’ll back off into their big fortresses (bases) & drink fizzy drinks & eat burgers & watch action & romance movies whilst the Islamics collide in a titanic battle & turn another generation into dust, as happened during the Iran/Iraq conflict in the 80s.
It’s a disgrace! And how the citizens who voted for these pupets run by Oil & Media Barons, War-mongers & overly paranoid Zionists can live w/ themselves is beyond me!
September 24th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Phill in Berlin Diary, William Shirer describes the atmosphere in Berlin when Hitler launched the great slaughter. Apparently it was nothing like 1914, when crowds cheered the Kaiser. It was more like ‘WTF? Has the government actually gone ahead and done it? We thought it would be Rhineland/Austria/Czechoslovakia again.’
I imagine Washington will be something like that if and when the USA trashes Iran. A bit like when you’re a kid and your dad makes a fool of himself wanting to fight the bloke who just cut him off at the lights. You look straight ahead and pretend you don’t know him and wish you could be adopted by some other family … but you don’t confront your dad. You don’t know how.
September 24th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Hey Nas,
If you wanna write “War and Peace go for it.I read all of your posts right through to the end.And apart from being informative, you have a sense of humor,look Nas I’ve never seen you in the flesh but can we get married?I will leave my wife and kids for you Nas.No not Ken he’s fucking ugly!what does Obs look like I wonder?Aussie Bob sound too butch. da da dee da da.
See what a public education can do for you Nas.
September 24th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Ken good try and I get the point,but I don’t believe it,Germans have been coming out of the wood work for years saying “We didn’t know” bollicks to that I know different. No of course I wasn’t there,didn’t need to be,My dads sister was in Germany before the invasion of Poland. I have at least nine relatives who were in Germany during WW2,in one capacity or another.One of my Dads brothers was in Changi he didn’t like Japs funny that.
Don’t get me wrong Ken I aint no racist,and racists get short fucking shrift from me. However I am not going to let anyone guild the lily about WW2 it effected my family more than many.
I am not in love with Germans to be sure,I mean lets call a spade a fucking shovel here,they were after world domination,just like the British then,and the Yanks now, I just had a problem with them executing millions of women and children in cold blood.And then! having the fucking moxey to say most of them didn’t know,or wern’t in love with Hitler. Bollicks Bollicks and more Bollicks.
September 24th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
lol…Phill you crack me up. As always your blunt & ‘DOWN-TO-EARTH’ assessment of things goes down like a cold beer on a hot day. Thnx for the kind words & offer…but i reckon i’ll stick to my fine wife S’ for the time being, she stole my heart a long time ago & i’m damned if i know where she’s keeping it, but she must tickle it now & then ’cause she knows how to keep me smilin’ & content….:)…
P.S. she thinks Ken is sweet.
ya know, i reckon this comparing Ahmadinejad to Hitler says more about the deceitfulness of our Corporate media & some bloggers…& how indebted to, or myopically supportive of, x-treme Zionist policies they truly are.
I have a Jewish friend in America who is also concerned about the wave of distortions, mistranslations & deliberate war-mongering rhetoric that is coming out of some of the Democratic Party, Corporate media & other Jewish camps in America.
Now, to their credit, many Jewish Americans are also on the front line of the anti-war campaigns…& the attacks on the Neo-Cons. But how many times do we have to see talking heads like Wolf Blitzer trying to look objective but in fact obviously obsessed w/ bringing up Iran in the context of “killing American soldiers”, “supporters of terrorism”, “Holocaust denialists”, “supporters of Hamas/Hezbollah”, “nuclear missiles” time & time & time again?
It so resembles the build up to the invasion of Iraq…but this time so many super-paranoid Israel supporters are flooding the networks & papers & demanding action be taken…& using donations to candidates to push them to speak aggressively about the Iranian regime.
Why on Earth should some Methodist kid from Arkansas be sent to die to make CEOs & share holders of oil, armament, media, security & construction Corporations richer…& to support the nation of Israel?
It’s just not right!
I totally understand why so many Jews are traumatised and feel angst about Iran potentially possessing nukes…but for them to turn a ‘blind eye’ to the greed & corruption in Republican ranks…& to the CON in Iraq & the resulting tragedy…& ignore the role of Saudis in the 9/11 attacks…& to avert their gaze when it comes to the profits being made at the expense of COW soldier’s & innocent Arab’s lives, well, it just makes me wonder if anyone learns anything as a victim of an atrocity?…
but then, i think we’ll find that a bias towards Socialism (partially understandable due to the attrocities committed by Russian communists) might also have something to do w/ this.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:06 am
But then comes along someone special to lift the spirits & prove people do learn from terrible events…those who don’t let fear overwhelm them, but rather turn their trauma into something positive:
KERRY O’BRIEN: Of course the world might have lost Marcel Marceau in World War II.
As a French Jew, you had to survive the Holocaust.
The Nazis took your father, killed your father and you had to survive your involvement in the French Resistance.
What was the impact of that war on your art?
MARCEL MARCEAU: Well, I did a number called ‘Bip Remembers’ about this, to fight for peace, no more war.
And I think that it made my art much deeper.
And I think that - I believe in humanity.
I think the time when people will form one world on this little planet and it will be peace, then maybe we enter the golden age.
But at the moment it’s not the case.
We can never forget what wars did to people and we have to continue to learn from life and to bring enlightenment to humanity.
(7:30 Report, ABC: 11/11/03)
R.I.P. Marcel Marceau
September 25th, 2007 at 12:31 am
Well thanks Nas,that’s me down to earth,common as fucking muck ! I don’t like pretentious pricks Nas never have, still I guess being an obnoxious loud mouth like me can’t help your cause either.There are always grey areas for a debate, but some are black and white end of story,or as some would say narrative.Oh by the way thats one of my pet hates, a point of view is fine,but that don’t make it a fact,and some condescending pricks think cause they have been to uni,they are the font of all fucking knowledge.Well bollicks to that!.I can fucking read even it’s only the adjectives like “Bastard Arse wipe, Fuckhead, Fucktard” and so on.Now where was I?
“ya know, i reckon this comparing Ahmadinejad to Hitler says more about the deceitfulness of our Corporate media & some bloggers…& how indebted to, or myopically supportive of, x-treme Zionist policies they truly are.”
Ya got it in one,and that’s the bottom line.This is where all this shit is being driven from,and the dupes are fallin for it.This at the end of the day is about Israel surviving as a Nation,and right or wrong they are not going to let Iran get the bomb.I have seen endless analytical pourings about what is going to happen,and it’s boring me shitless.If Iran persists they will get a pasting from either the U.S. or Israel end of..
All this posturing by Ahmadineejad is making his own people nervous,most are aware that the U.S. can turn Iran into a new car park for Walmart thay have possibly planned for Tehran.All the rest is just bollicks,they will test for a while longer, and voila, no more interest in bombs any bets?
September 25th, 2007 at 1:41 am
I don’t think Israeli leaders, or indeed Jews anywhere are being needlessly paranoid about the possible prospect of a second Holocaust. When Ahmadinejad says “Israel must be wiped off the map” personally I am inclined to take him at his word.
Whilst the bulk of the Iranian population may not be willing to go that far, if we are willing to acknowledge that the war against Iraq was undertaken against the wishes of the Australian populace, then I think we can make the imaginative leap that thuggish murderous theocrats might harbour genocidal ambitions, even if that is anathema to their people.
No-one has ever marvelled at my ability to walk and chew gum at the same time, but it is possible to deplore a strike against Iran (and to be totally clear, I think such a thing would be a moral outrage akin to…I dunno…Iraq?) whilst acknowleding that Israel’s neighbours have never behaved like cuddly-snuggle bunnies.
September 25th, 2007 at 1:47 am
I’ve just read a thread on Lavartus Prodeo that deals w/ elements of this issue. They link to a Bulletin article that just makes me shake my head. The influence some lobby groups have in our Countries is just so “not on!!!”…particularly when it leads to War…& the construction of ‘a common enemy’…talk about being dragged into HELLCLONE by power & influence:
“Nevertheless, Jewish leaders are concerned about the inexperience of his frontbench and, particularly, the volatility of his backbench. As one senior Jewish official put it: “With the Liberals, we’ve got a dream team; with Labor, there are still some ratbags on the notoriously anti-Israel backbench.”
Barry Cohen, the last Jew to serve as a federal minister, is still “very concerned” about Labor’s anti-Israel underbelly. “There are sections of mainstream Labor branches that are quite viciously anti-Israel,” he says.
But Dr Ron Weiser, a former president of the Zionist Federation of Australia, believes the Labor Left is of greater concern. “Within the Howard government, there are a number of people who are equally outstanding. But once you get beyond Rudd and [Wayne] Swan, it’s a lesser-known quantity,” he says. “We’re not expecting the same degree of support.”
Weiser notes that under Rudd, however, Labor’s fiercest Israel critics – Tanya Plibersek and Julia Irwin, who slammed Israel and the Jewish lobby in 2002 – have quietened.
“Even [Anthony] Albanese is much less anti-Israel than he was,” adds one high-profile Sydney Jew connected to the Labor Party.
Enter George Newhouse, lawyer, mayor of Waverley in Sydney’s eastern suburbs, son of a former Zionist leader and colleague of Rudd’s right-hand man Walt Secord (a former Australian Jewish News journalist) who, say insiders, was tempted to run against Turnbull. Turnbull himself has engaged Jews with gusto, peppering speeches with Hebrew and Yiddish – and he’ll “turn up to the opening of an envelope”, says one high-profile Jew.
The Wentworth showdown sent some Labor apparatchiks “absolutely ballistic” on August 10 after a senior Jewish official tipped off Turnbull about Labor’s planned pledge on Jewish school security funding, enabling the Liberals to trump Labor with a similar policy. This leak, coupled with accusations that submissions by Jewish organisations against a further redistribution of Wentworth’s boundaries favoured Turnbull, has strained relations.
Whoever wins government, eminent Jews such as Frank Lowy, Richard Pratt, Harry Triguboff and John Gandel will always have the ear of government.
(excerpts from: Jewish community’s Left worry: Dan Goldberg, The Bulletin, Election 2007)
I’ve supported Israel for years over its right to exist as a sovereign nation…& even tho i reckon the ‘Holocaust’ needs more examination in public regarding the role of American corporate types in the creation of the NAZI state, i have never felt anything but outrage when writing about, reflecting on it & watching images that relate to this ’sorry’, ‘dreadful’, ‘disgusting’ episode in Human history (as I felt when watching that ‘Slaughterhouse’ doco)…
but to think that the Labor Party is potentially being blackmailed & demeaned by a group of overly paranoid, Howeirdian supporting, money thugs just makes me so angry.
BTW, anyone who takes these comments as being anti-Semitic is barking up the wrong tree & playing the ‘political correctness’ game. I will identify any group that uses power & influence to do wrong. Wasn’t it the Liberals who said you shouldn’t hide behind political correctness?
And anyone who uses criticism of certain Jewish & Israeli-based groups & individuals as an excuse to commit hate crimes deserves to be punished. Full stop.
This is a debate that needs to be had. Just like we discussed the role of the fossil fuel, armament, private contractor, media, Turkish lobby groups etc. in beating the War drums.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:07 am
How many times have we observed individuals hide behind & use their ethnicity & victim status(political correctness from Left to Right) & cause (even environmentalism) to pursue extreme goals that gain them obscene power & wealth?
Some individuals will stoop to any level, play any role, use any cause to gain or retain privilege & assets.
We’ve seen it time & time again.
I believe that many supporting the Busheviks & Howeirdians, & now Sarkosians, know full well that Israel is not in danger from Iran in the ‘mushroom cloud’ way…that much of the evidence is hyped & bogus as it was w/ Saddam’s Iraqi regime. rather, they stand to gain mighty profits for expanding this war.
Their shares & interests should be examined closely. But i doubt any Corporate media journos will have the guts.
This is one of the reasons i put up excerpts from the bios of some influential figures who are defining the news these days on this thread:
http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/2007/09/20/anti-muslim-hysteria/
September 25th, 2007 at 2:34 am
Tell you what, Nas. Name some of these people hiding behind their “ethnicity” and “victim status”, and we can talk about the outrages they perpetrate whilst wielding their “obscene power and wealth”. I guess you must be talking about “Freemasons”?
September 25th, 2007 at 3:06 am
“I guess you must be talking about “Freemasons”?”
Heavens to murgatroyd not the dreaded secret handshake brigade.?
September 25th, 2007 at 3:26 am
“Barry Cohen, the last Jew to serve as a federal minister, is still “very concerned” about Labor’s anti-Israel underbelly. “There are sections of mainstream Labor branches that are quite viciously anti-Israel,” he says.”
Hey Nas, I would really like to see proof that a “Anti Israel underbelly” exists,in the Australian Labor Party.I hope that this is not being confused with the fact that some in the Labor Party, would like to see a Palestinian State?
I find the very idea that fellow travelers in the Labor Party being accused of being anti semitic as being quite frankly, offensive.If anyone can supply a link to a speech or other communication from an current serving member of the ALP, that could be construed as anti semitic, I would like to see it.
September 25th, 2007 at 6:19 am
who knows Phill?…yer probably right.
Seems to me that if you criticise individuals who support pretty well anything Israel does, regardless of how violent or criminal those acts are…or you have the so called “indecency” to state that Palestinians have the right to their own State…or perhaps Iran is not as dangerous as much of the Corporate media & their DEFINERS tell us…or you question the integrity of politicians or Parties who allow themselves to be dictated to by Zionist-oriented lobby groups or individuals rather than representing the interests of all their electorate, you get labelled by some as ‘anti-semitic’.
So much for this government bringing about an end to political correctness eh?
I imagine the Labor party has a few bigots in it, like most groups, unfortunately…but i reckon some highly influential people in the media, religious & business community are more concerned w/ ensuring that policies of the Labor Party (and the Coalition, & the media) particularly the top echelon, conform to their belief systems & values…support, or at least remain generally uncritical of their corporate and capitalist ventures.
Such is life. But that doesn’t make it right.
In fact, it makes our Democracy a sham!
“Tell you what, Nas. Name some of these people hiding behind their “ethnicity” and “victim status”, and we can talk about the outrages they perpetrate whilst wielding their “obscene power and wealth”. I guess you must be talking about “Freemasons”?”
Not at all…i’m talking about the influence of a mere few individuals, take Lord Levy in Britain as a case in point. Or Mr. Murdoch here & overseas. Some critics are even wary of Frank Lowy’s connections to politicians because of his ownership of property beneath the World Trade Centre & connections to Israel’s Olmert (tho i’m still unsure about the veracity of these claims).
Don’t forget Mr. Creighton, “money, bigotry & resources makes the world go around…then the media spins it around”.
And we’re talking here about the biases and interests of those supporting the major political parties that tend to run our government. Religious beliefs, views, occupation, goals etc. of each influential individual don’t always align, but i think it’s obvious to many people now that our Democracies have been put on a rail that leads to major confrontation w/ various regimes & States w/in the Middle East & Gulf State region.
What we need to ask ourselves is WHY?
How did this happen?
How valid is the evidence being provided?
Who gains the most from this intervention into the affairs of Arabs & Persians?
Are pre-emptive strikes the best option?
Freemasons…smeemasons…just not interested.
I’m off to watch a recording of the Daily Show.
P.S. don’t ya just luv how the CNN anchor tonite said “(Mamoud Ahmadinejad) has a tendency to go on…we’ll return if he has anything of interest to say”…? (nothin’ like gettin’ it straight from the horses mouth eh?)
sigh.
September 25th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Does anyone here not believe that there would be many Hansonites who are anti jew (anti-semitic). These same people that Howard has won over.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
When Ahmadinejad says “Israel must be wiped off the map” personally I am inclined to take him at his word.
As I understood, he never said that and was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini’s remark about the Israeli regime,which might not be a bad idea.
Robbo
September 25th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Agreed Muskiemp. Most anti-Semites are probably bigots towards blacks, asians and arabs as well.
The mouth-foaming regarding percieved ‘anti-Israel’ sentiment Labor Left in the MSM is a joke. As you point out nas, any type of criticism of Israeli policy, or even just statement of inconvenient fact, will result in the ‘anti-Israel’ label being dumped on you. And once that has happened, debate finshes. More power to Plibersek and Irwin.
Re ahmedinijad, It is amazing how many screen-hours his face has occupied on Australian TV without broadcasting any of what he has to say. If he is such a lunatic anti-Semite then I’d like to hear it from the horses mouth, instead of having to trust a newsreader who tells me he is a holocaust-denying, Israel-hating neo-Hitler.
Same with Osama bin Laden. If he is spouting ill-considered anti-American propaganda then I would like to hear him myself and verify that based on what I hear him say, instaed of having selected tidbits of what he says passed on to me by a newsreader.
They’re doing the same thing with Chavez in the US MSM. It just shows how scared the Establishment is of losing control over the minds of the populace.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
I haven’t been altogether comfortable with the exchanges that have occurred in this thread, so I’m moving on to other blogs and fresh fields. Have a good time everybody.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Robbo, the BBC quotes Ahmadinejad as saying, "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map "
, referring to Khomeini. His comments were reported by the Iranian state news agency, so it’s pretty clear the Iranians do think he said it.
September 25th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
“Re ahmedinijad…If he is such a lunatic anti-Semite then I’d like to hear it from the horses mouth, instead of having to trust a newsreader who tells me he is a holocaust-denying, Israel-hating neo-Hitler.”
I agree…& well paul b, to the credit of Fox News (I can’t believe i’m saying this…tho i found it irritating they used Bolton to sum the speech up) they did show the complete speech & question time by Ahmedinijad…
& I have to say i wasn’t impressed w/ Ahmedinijad. Not that i have ever supported the Iranian regime (see comments about Ahmedinijad above), rather i support the right of the Iranian people to live in peace w/out the threat of mass bombings hanging over their heads. But Ahmedinijad failing to provide straight answers to questions about Israel’s ‘right to exist’ & ‘The Holocaust’, but instead rambling on like some Evangelical in “intelligence design’ land really got me worried about this character.
Perhaps Mr. Creighton is not so wrong when he says:
“I don’t think Israeli leaders, or indeed Jews anywhere are being needlessly paranoid about the possible prospect of a second Holocaust.”
No, I didn’t like what I saw & heard at all. And the comments about homosexuals not existing in Iran were outrageous. How sad for the Iranian people that such a delusional man should have so much power & too often wave that red flag to stir up the Busheviks.
Still, there has to be a better way of defeating tyranny that invading & bombing…& essentially, potentially, causing the death of thousands…if not millions, of innocents? Surely?
Anyway, kudos to Columbia University for having the courage to promote ‘freedom of speech’ & provide a forum for debate during these ‘darkest of days’.
The Busheviks & others (incl. many Right-Wing Bloggers & journos) are way too keen to crush civil rights & stymie debate in order to appease their sponsors, funders & pursue their war-mongering & resource grabbing goals…& in the long run it not only hurts their reputation…but damages the foundations of our Democracies. And I reckon their fears of ‘fence sitters’ being drawn into Ahmedinijad’s camp is bogus & has not occurred. In fact, those of us who have been suspicious of his intentions for years have only had our suspicions heightened.
And furthermore, this does not in anyway justify the privileged access that some wealthy individuals get to our politicians.
I’m sorry to see kenj go. He is a formidable & articulate ‘truth’ pursuer.
an article worth reading…regardless of how uncomfortable some of us may feel pursuing the topic of extreme Zionist influence:
http://www.counterpunch.com/ross09242007.html
(September 24, 2007.
Only Cheney Knows for Sure
Just How Powerful is the Israel Lobby?
By SHERWOOD ROSS)
September 25th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
And this excerpt from an interview w/ renowned journalist Seymour Hersh (one of my fave journos) is also worth taking into account…and demonstrates this is about influence…not anti-Semitic behaviour:
“JJ: Having grown up in a Yiddish home, the son of Polish and Lithuanian immigrants, how would you describe your Jewish identity?
SH: Vague. I like a lot of the historical stuff; I’m agnostic about the religion. But I certainly understand the power of faith, and I wish the American Jews could talk more to some of the Israelis I know and see how open-minded they are about many issues American Jews are not. There is tremendous diversity in Israel. Here the stuff of conversation ends up in a bloody fight; there you can discuss anything.
My [three] children chose: Some went through the bar mitzvah process; some did not. I’m a believer in you do what you want to do. For me, my Jewish heritage comes mainly in literature. I identify very strongly with the Saul Bellows and Philip Roths of this world. But it’s so irrelevant that I am Jewish when I write about Jewish issues. It really is for me. It’s just like it is irrelevant what my personal opinion is on things.
JJ: I was going to ask if your being Jewish has in any way affected your coverage of Israeli politics, particularly security?
SH: No, no. It gets me in more fights.
JJ: The book “The Israel Lobby” just came out. How would you characterize Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer’s assessment of the power of the pro-Israel community?
SH: You can’t touch them in terms of being anti-Semitic. They are realists. They are from the realists’ school. I haven’t read the book, but it’s not either/or, either support Israel or don’t. It’s: try and use the tremendous support and relationship we have to modify their behavior more than we do. But this government and that relationship [with Israel] is really profound, and it is just very secretive between us and Israel. It is not transparent, and that is not healthy for anybody.”
( Brad A. Greenberg: September 24, 2007,Q & A with investigative journalist Seymour Hersh
from 2007-09-21)
http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/09/q-with-investigative-journalist-seymour.html
———
Personally, i’m exhausted…have researched, linked to & edited bios/articles & commented on various influential individuals & groups over the past year and a bit on RTS ranging from the Military Industrial Complex supporting Corporations (incl. oil, armaments, construction & security), to private contractors in Iraq, to Turkish & Saudi lobby groups and so on. So anyone who thinks i’m picking on the X-treme Zionists needs to wake up.
It is obvious to me that Jewish people everywhere, including in Israel, are pursuing the same goals as many of us on here. To bring about a diplomatic answer to this War in Iraq & problems w/ Iran and Syria.
And…to shine a light on the primary definers who show up continually on news’ programs & in papers and Blogs…including those who seem to be driving us down the path to another confrontation w/ an Islamic nation. Too often it seems for personal gain, sometimes combined w/ zealotry & bigotry that may have derived from trauma & tragic experience, or even a sense of moral superiority…even occasionally vocalising valid fears.
This has been an uncomfortable & yet enlightening journey for me…but i don’t regret looking beneath the covers.
N’
I like this quote:
Andre Gide:
“Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.”
&
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there’s a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
who also said:
“Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict.”
And:
“No people ever recognize their dictator in advance. He never stands for election on the platform of dictatorship. He always represents himself as the instrument [of] the Incorporated National Will. … When our dictator turns up you can depend on it that he will be one of the boys, and he will stand for everything traditionally American. And nobody will ever say “Heil” to him, nor will they call him “Führer” or “Duce.” But they will greet him with one great big, universal, democratic, sheeplike bleat of “O.K., Chief! Fix it like you wanna, Chief! Oh Kaaaay!” (1935)
and:
E. L. Doctorow:
History is the present. That’s why every generation writes it anew. But what most people think of as history is its end product, myth.
September 25th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Can we just be clear hear please, so there is no confusion. The idea that US foreign policy is controlled by a cabal of ‘zionists’ (read Jews) for the purpose of manipulating US foreign policy into unstinting support for Israel, sails perilously close to old canards about Jews controlling finance/banks and the rest of anti-semitic garbage.
Correlation does not equal causation. The US foreign policy establishment doesn’t rely on anything other than its own views about the US divine right (manifest destiny) to do what it likes, when it likes, to whom it likes. in its own interests.
It is driven by a view of the rights that accrue to a great power like the US to act unilaterally. If it is in the US interest to back Israel it will do so. If it is not, nothing and no-one would be able to ‘force’ ‘coerce’ or otherwise persuade them to do so.
The US gives money arms and support to Arab regimes across the ME, not just ones who recognise Israel. How do you account for that?
People’s views/actions should be considered on the basis of what they do/say, not on the basis of the religio-ethnic identity of the person who hold them.
The canard levelled at the left that there is a new ‘anti-semitism’ abroad, because of opposition to US policies in the ME, and to Israeli policies towards the Occupied territories, gets undeserved airtime, while ever people prattle on about ‘the Jews’ controlling US foreign policy as part of some secret deal to support Israel. It’s crap.
Israel gets supported because the US ruling elite judges it to be an effective policy, and for no other reason. The fact that plenty of jews make a living writing and talking about foreign policy that supports Israel simply illustrates that people like working on and for things they support. Nothing else. As for the Bulletin article, all it tells me, is that right wingers everywhere don’t welcome an ALP government, and are busy looking for the ‘left wing’ flea riding, as they see it ,on the back of Rudd. So what? Rich people generally would prefer a Howard government. Hold the presses!
For F’s sake, can we get a grip and not start sounding like the wingnuts that blame a conspiracy of post modern maoists for the fact that the world no longer works like it did in 1955?
September 25th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Aussie Sheila, did you actually read what i wrote? Sigh.
September 25th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Personally, i’m not happy about getting Parties across the line w/out scrutinising those who might be influencing policy development & providing massive support.
The Coalition (Libs & Nats) here in Australia, the Labour Party in the UK…& the Republicans in the USA (& some Dems)…all who helped get us into the Iraq FIASCO, provide good examples of why the ‘light’ needs to be shone.
Particularly as we possibly head towards another ‘constructed war’.
Here’s another view of the influence of the Israeli Lobby groups which counters some of the views expressed by John Mearshimer and Steven Walt in their book, THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND US FOREIGN POLICY:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mort-zuckerman/debunking-the-myth-of-th_b_65707.html
(Debunking the Myth of “The Israel Lobby”: Mort Zuckerman, September 24, 2007)
That’s it for me on this issue…at least for now.
Ken has valuable things to say on his “There are no stupid questions, only stupid people” thread.
You certainly got some discussion going here Ken. Good for you! I just hope people read your piece & the comments carefully & don’t distort writer’s intentions.
September 25th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Nas i reckon you’re a top bloke, I love the way you comment and engage with a thread and forgive me in advance if what I’m about to say causes you any offence. But I think you’re being a tad optimistic if you expect anyone to read everything you write.
So far on this thread, which has been going less than two days, you’ve written over 7,000 words. That’s a lot man … More than I’m prepared to read, to be frank.
Most of us I guess have limited time to spend on line, we like to read a lot of blogs and comment in more than one place, and I’m afraid when I see a very long comment from you or anyone else I skim the first paragraph and if it doesn’t grab my attention I move right along. There are some guys over at Tim’s other place who might be revealing the secrets of the meaning of life but I for one shall never know because when I see their S/N I go straight past them.
Anyway I’m not having a go at you or asking you to write less mate, but maybe you could reflect on whether you’re getting your message across in the most effective way. That’s all.
September 25th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Nasking, I don’t doubt that various lobbies ‘influence’ policies of all kinds, and the best organized and funded ones are usually the most successful. However that is a far cry from the constant bleating about the Israeli lobby as being synonymous with Jews. Sure there eis an Israeli lobby. there eis a Saudi lobby, and Australian lobby and a Turkmenistan lobby no doubt.
The point is that no lobby will be successful (for long) if what it lobbies for does not meet the interests of those that make the decisions. Ask organized labour in the US. That is my point, and I think much of the criticism of the ‘Zionist lobby’ should be directed at the interests who are happy to keep the ME in the state it is in, for far more prosaic reasons that the fact that a whole bunch of clever people who happen to be jewish, have a tendency to support whatever Israel does. That’s all mate.
September 25th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
got ya AS…good points…:)
I don’t…I meant the comment before AS posted. Not egotistical enuff to believe such. I mean sh*t, let’s face it, i’m only some nobody, one of the masses, w/ a fake name who makes comments on BLOGGER’s threads. Right? Suits me….:)
“you’ve written over 7,000 words. That’s a lot man … ”
:)…agreed..that’s alot.
“More than I’m prepared to read, to be frank.”
hey, you’ve got a life, right? Read what ya want, skip what ya want Ken. Not bothered.
“we like to read a lot of blogs and comment in more than one place”
as i do…but i get yer drift.
never did like sound-bytes Ken…;)
anyway, it’s probably time i moved on. i do have a tendency to get too involved in discussions and debates at times. a bit addicted. but that’s me, i won’t change. so it’s best this bear realises the blog winter has come and it’s time to hibernate.
but i’ll still poke my head out of the cave and read the blogs now & then. too much good brain food not to take a bite now & then…:)
i’ve had a good run on RTS. Mucho thnx to Tim. He’s a good man. Brill comments on Blogocracy.
I hope i’ve helped open a few eyes…& can attest to having learnt heaps from people on here. But i’m very tired now.
And i’ve learnt a great deal about the political economy…& why the Left sometimes fails to catch the attention of the voters…& resists changing a far too corrupt & stale system. Too much in-fighting at the wrong time for one.
Still, Democracy requires debate. Hopefully if Rudd gets in he’ll remember that.
Howard hasn’t. Not his w/in his Party at least.
The Corporate media hasn’t helped.
Maybe oneday we’ll have an improved Democracy, w/ less influence from powerful individuals eh? And Peace…not War. And thriving small businesses…& not domination by rampaging, profit-obsessed Corporations. And an emphasis on ‘Clean Energy. And less animal blood on the hands of people.
OK, keep up the good work Ken, Gianna, Helen, Tim & Eric. I had a ball. Time to spend the school hols w/ the wife…& get some proper sleep. That cave looks mighty inviting…:)
Rage on people!…keep kickin’ arse Phill, Muskiemp, Seeker, EC, Lyn, Grace, Herindoors, AS & others…
we’ll meet again some sunny day
NO LONGER EYES WIDE SHUT!
September 25th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Nasking, relax mate, for God’s sake relax! A lot of people like you, and your views. You don’t have to take a jump off the Gap. I’m a bit like you, I can pump out 7000 words without batting an eyelid. And I like to do so. If I find the right blog and the right topic I’ll go all day. But I can’t possibly get everything I want to say on to other people’s web sites, so I have several blogs of my own. [...no-one goes there, but that's cool]. I just dump there and organize my own ideas on key topics and when I want to I just point people to them.
I’ll let you in on a shocking little secret, Nas, old son….most people are only interested in themselves…There! I’ve said it! Shock, horror. We all seek, in our own various strange ways, to shape the views of others and to hear the sound of our own voices. Sometimes we can, sometimes not. It’s never the end of the world. And — most importantly — it’s rarely, if ever, personal. Most of the time it doesn’t even matter ( a car accident could wipe me out tonight and the world would go on just fine without me).
If it’s really not fun then give blogging a miss. But otherwise just put your feet up, call for fresh beers, stroke the cat, watch the latest movie and basically take it easy. Then come back tomorrow and give ‘em 10,000 words (that’ll shut the bastards up!) (or 2000 words of brilliantly edited prose that sets ‘em on their heels!) Relax.
September 25th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
“but maybe you could reflect on whether you’re getting your message across in the most effective way”
Hey Nas,the above comment WTF.I would say to that, to whom is the message supposed to be getting to? Most people who comment on this here blog are committed to the cause anyways,for wingnuttery to have any change to their thought process,you have to put half a ton of fucking dynamite under their arses.I read everyones shit long or short it is common fucking courtesy,and has got F.A. to do with having a life else where.
Oh whilst we’re on the subject of the Jews,and your comment about “it is a debate we should have!” agree in total.However some people seem to think because it is the Jews we/I have to tread careful?Well like Fuck I will.I must be missing something here?Tell me if Im wrong?
The Jews in the modern context invaded by way of the Balfour agreement, a land mass named Palestine,they systematically kicked the occupants out and then proceeded to move into in many cases,farmland and houses that belonged to Arabs.Simple.
Simplistic I know but hey the Palastinians have got shit on the liver over this and they want it back.So what the fuck has the Holocaust,circumcision.,Moses,or the parting of the Red Sea got to do with this ? F.A.
Until the Palestinians get to have a State of their own,all else is bollicks,this shit fight will go on forever.And there aint no winners here folks, just more of the same,dead people and grieving mothers.
And just to stay on topic,Ahmadinejads little trip to the U.S. is for home consumption to stay in power.Listening to this man he couldn’t run a fucking pub chook raffle much less a moder M.E. country like Iran.He will be gone soon enough, and all the boys can put their pop guns away.
Dont go Naaaaaaassssssssss.
September 25th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Robbo, the BBC quotes Ahmadinejad as saying, “As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map ”
The BBC report has been shown to have wrongly translated it, and Khomeini referred to the Regime
not Israel.
More important….Nas don’t go.
September 25th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Robbo, the Beeb originally sourced their quote from the official translation released by IRNA, Iran’s official propaganda arm. And whilst they have seen fit to issue several different versions of that translation in several distinct contexts, I find it hard to believe they didn’t know exactly what they were saying. And in interviews with the American media Ahmadinejad has been asked to clarify his position re. “regime” or “Israel”, and in each instance he has refused to do so.